Landscaping: Where to Plant Flowering trees

Replies: 52 Views: 352

Author	Comment
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 13, 2007 6:25 PM	Last year I joined the Arbor day foundation and got 10 free trees. They are supposed to be White Flowering Dogwood, American Redbud, Goldenraintree, sargent Crabapple, Washington Hawthorn, and a Rose of Sharon. They were supposed to have paint on the trunks so I could tell the difference, but some did not. I planted them in a temporary place last year and plan on planting this fall. I #1 don't know which tree is which(I have a leaf ID page, but I can only ID the redbud for sure....there's two types of trees that look like they have the dogwood leaves. I think I know which is Rose of Sharon, but it somewhat resembles the goldenraintree and possibly the crabapple). I lost 2 trees last year, so I only have 8 now, and I believe I've lost one whole category of trees(5 different kinds, 2 each, plus the rose of sharon). So, anyway...once I ID them, I also am not sure how close to the house/fence they can be planted. Any help would be great! If I get ahold of a camera, I'll try posting the pics in the ID section. Thanks! Kristie
ecrane3 Dublin, CA (Zone 9a) July 13, 2007 6:30 PM	All of those have leaves that look different enough from each other that someone who is familiar with them will definitely know the difference. So if you can get pics and post them on the ID forum I know someone will know which one is which.
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 13, 2007 6:49 PM	Thanks! The illustrations the Arbor Day people sent look a lot different from each other. I'm just frustrated I can't figure out what they are! Like, for example the dogwood appear to be oval and smooth, not jagged at all. All the rest of the illustrations for the other trees look lobed(except for the redbud, I know what that is!) with teeth. Anyway, once I do figure out what they are, how closely can these be planted next to houses, utility lines, the road, etc? I put the one I thought was the Rose of Sharon in front of my house, maybe three foot away. Is this too close? Plus, now I'm worried that its actually one of these trees, in which case I'd probably better get it moved. The one I think is the Rose of Sharon grew pretty tall last year with just one twig. This year as it got its leaves, its gotten them from the bottom up, and doesn't have any leaves on the top half. It also sprouted new stems from the bottom. Does this maybe help ID it? The rest of them have leaves all the way up and have grown quite a bit. The one I think is the Dogwood is the tallest, probably four ft. Ok, sorry for going on and on about this, but I'm really wanting to know what they are. Thanks for the help ecrane! Kristie
missingrosie Hillsborough, NC July 13, 2007 6:49 PM	our rose of sharon is in full bloom now - so perhaps yours will bloom soon to help ID. l
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 13, 2007 6:50 PM	Well, they were really small when we got them, maybe 12 inches tall tops, so would it take a few years for them to bloom? Kristie
missingrosie Hillsborough, NC July 13, 2007 6:53 PM	Mine was just two feet tall and it bloomed the next season. Rose of Sharon to me is a bush as opposed to a tree but it grows big and wide - so maybe that is why folks say tree. It is multi stemmed tho and it will get maybe four/five feet in diameter - at least the one I have is that big around and it is around five years old. So maybe not too close to the house. Also the June Bugs LOVE it and if you don't want to be dive bombed and buzzed etc., you may not want to put it near a walkway.
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 13, 2007 9:01 PM	Thanks for the help missingrosie! We always use the side door, so the only one who has to worry about dive bombing june bugs is the mailman. But, it is far enough away from the door I don't think that will happen. Thanks again! Kristie
WeeNel Ayrshire Scotland (United Kingdom) July 14, 2007 4:36 PM	Hi Kristie, WeeNel here, do you mean that even the trees are the same size, 12 inches, if so, you will wait forever and a day to try identify the true leaves, however, I would go to a librery, book store and get some books on trees that grow in your area, as there are lots of types of trees from the same family, it would be such a shame to plant a tree and find it needs moved again the next year when you discover it is in the wrong spot. If the trees are really young saplings, like really baby trees, I would be inclined to get them into bigger pots, not too big as you can go up sizes of pots as the roots fill the pot it is in, but if potted up with good quality compost, you should allow yourself much more time to learn all about the trees needs/care, like full sun/shade finnal hight when mature and all these kind of things, remember, the final hight of a tree normally equals the root area it can spread, rather than being rushed into making the wrong decisions or guessing what they are, young trees can be looked after, watered and fed in a pot for a good couple of years before any damage is done to the growing conditions, so I would think about that if they are tiny plants/trees, then you can really enjoy there beauty knowing they are eventually planted in the right place and spot for your enjoyment also. good luck. Weenel.
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 14, 2007 4:47 PM	No, they were about 12 inches when I first got them last year. This year the tallest is probably about 4 foot tall. I know how big they will get and all that, because the arbor day sent me a leaf identification sheet and a description of each tree. The only problem is that now the pics of the leaves don't look like the leaves I have, so I don't know which ones are which. *sigh Kristie
flowerprincess Ogden, UT July 15, 2007 1:26 PM	I had a flowering dogwood, I believe it's a Cherekee Chief, given to me last year, unfortunately it didn't bloom this year due to the weather. I have a silly question, I looked at pictures of this beautfiful tree and I'm beginning to wonder if it is a dogwood afterall. It looks like a fruit tree! Everyone who comes over asks me if its a peach or apricot tree! Do the dogwood leaves resemble fruit tree leaves? I will laugh if I get a big peach instead of dogwood blooms!! lol
NatureLover1950 Vicksburg, MS (Zone 8a) July 16, 2007 4:39 PM	Kristie, I too got trees from Arbor Day for our new house. They were so small that I put them in medium sized pots to start with and then the following spring, moved them up to larger pots (always left them outside, of course). I didn't finally get them into the ground until the 3rd spring I had them and they all did just fine. If you can do this, it would give you more time to see them leafed out so you can get a positive ID. That would be critical since you have trees with different needs there (i.e., dogwood needs partial shade, Washington hawthorn likes moist soil, etc.). My trees are all at least 8 to 10 feet tall now and beautiful--hope yours do as well as mine have. BTW, mine have only been in the ground for 2 1/2 years--they grow pretty fast. I have a Washington hawthorn and it's a beautiful tree. Marleine
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 16, 2007 5:09 PM	Thanks for the help! I've been studying the leaves a little more closely, and the two varieties that I think look a lot alike are starting to look a little different. The one that I thought was the dogwood has oval leaves that has alternating leaves. So does the other one, but I noticed that those leaves are alternating bunches...meaning there's more than one leaf in that bunch. The one I thought was a dogwood is alternating single leaves. How close to the house or a fence can you plant trees like these? Kristie
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 16, 2007 6:12 PM	Ok, I have pics!! I'll see if I can figure out how to post them.... View Larger
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 16, 2007 6:13 PM	The first one and this one are the one I think is the dogwood. The first is a close up of the leaves and here's the whole tree...Both the trees in the foreground are the same View Larger
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 16, 2007 6:15 PM	Here's another one....I think this one is either a goldenraintree, a washington hawthorn, or sargent crabapple...or maybe the rose of sharon based on the leaf ID page I have...lol see why I'm having problems...pic of the whole tree will be in the next post...wish you could post more than one pic at a time View Larger
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 16, 2007 6:16 PM	Here's the whole tree...as you can see its bushed out...I hope it isn't the Rose of sharon...that means I planted a tree right next to my house! View Larger
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 16, 2007 6:18 PM	Here's the one in front of my house I'm hoping is the rose of sharon View Larger
NatureLover1950 Vicksburg, MS (Zone 8a) July 16, 2007 6:19 PM	What I did with every tree I planted was look at the approximate diameter it will be at maturity. Then I placed the tree, while still in the pot, approximately where I wanted it and paced it off in every direction. If a tree is going to be approximately 30 feet in diameter, add 15 feet to the point you start from (your potted tree) and then add at least another 15 to 20 feet so you will have room between your tree and house, fence, whatever. Something like a Rose of Sharon would be good by a fence since it doesn't get any huge overhanging limbs. Trees such as your redbud have a larger diameter and need to be placed more out in an open area where it has lots of room to spread. Also, be aware of any overhead wires--check to see what the approximate mature height of the tree will be. And of course, consider your windows--you may not want a tree to completely shade an east or north-facing window. I planted 5 red maples on the west end of my house just to shade the windows from the hot summer sun but left my east windows treeless so I could enjoy the rising sun in the morning.
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 16, 2007 6:19 PM	Here's the entire "rose of sharon" View Larger
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 16, 2007 6:20 PM	Here's the other one I thought might be the dogwood..... View Larger
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 16, 2007 6:22 PM	And here's the whole tree.....I'm gonna post a link in the plant id forum to here as well. Thanks in advance for any help! Kristie View Larger
missingrosie Hillsborough, NC July 16, 2007 6:32 PM	Here's the one in front of my house I'm hoping is the rose of sharon-- those leaves look just like my rose of sharon which is in full bloom now.
missingrosie Hillsborough, NC July 16, 2007 6:37 PM	Kristie That last post with the two trees side by side. Can you tell me a little about the tree on the right? Is it my eyes or do the leaves at the bottom look much different from the leaves at the top of that tree? The leaves at the top sure look like redbud to me. And, the first tree you posted (where you said that you were going to see if you could figure how to post..) that tree doesn't look like a dogwood. You nailed the Rose of Sharon I think - good job!
Resin Northumberland (United Kingdom) (Zone 9a) July 16, 2007 7:17 PM	First tree looks like a crabapple Resin
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 16, 2007 7:17 PM	Yes, those leaves are redbuds...you see, the garden they're planted in is a circle with "wedges" the ones in the forefront are the unknown tree. There are two redbuds planted behind them and those are the leaves you are seeing. Those were the only ones I could identify for sure! If the one at the top doesn't look like a dogwood, then the other ones that I think are a dogwood are the last pics that you saw the redbuds in.... Good to hear the "Rose of Sharon" really is a Rose of Sharon...one down... Thanks for the help! Kristie
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 16, 2007 7:20 PM	Crabapple?! Wow, if left on my own I woulda screwed this all up! I thought if any of the remaining trees was a crabapple, it woulda been the second tree. I think I may scan the leaf id sheet they gave me so you guys can see it...I'm totally confused by it now....Thanks for taking time to help me figure this out! Kristie
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 16, 2007 7:27 PM	Here's the tree identification sheet I got....I'm so CONFUSED View Larger
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 16, 2007 7:27 PM	Here's the tree identification sheet I got....I'm so CONFUSED View Larger
ViburnumValley Scott County, KY (Zone 5b) July 16, 2007 7:59 PM	So confused you posted twice! Next time (if you are so blessed as to have plenty more plants to ID), number the photos as you post them so that the responders have an easy way to refer to them with the identifications provided. You could actually go back and edit your posts, and include that (though you only get to do 5 edits in a day if I recall correctly). Anyhoo...here's what I believe you have, in order posted: First: Crabapple close (Malus spp.) Second: Crabapple whole Third: Fragrant Sumac (Rhus aromatica) close Fourth: Fragrant Sumac whole Fifth: Rose of Sharon close (Hibiscus syriacus) Sixth: Rose of Sharon whole Seventh: could be Washington Hawthorn close (Crataegus phaenopyrum) Eighth: could be Washington Hawthorn whole I know you didn't list Fragrant Sumac as a choice, but sometimes big outfits like National Arbor Day Foundation mess up, too. In any event, you have no dogwoods illustrated. Dogwoods (Cornus spp.) and specifically Cornus florida, the white flowering dogwood, are primarily opposite foliaged plants except for Pagoda Dogwood (Cornus alternifolia) which you didn't ask about. Sorry about that. The 3-leaflet compound foliage of the sumac is pretty standard. Golden Raintree (Koelreuteria paniculata) also has compound foliage, but with many more leaflets (from 7 to15). Please feel free to take a look at PlantFiles entries, for comparison with your photos. It's a great resource here. I'll copy this info to your plant ID post, too.
Rocco Tulsa, OK (Zone 7a) July 16, 2007 8:12 PM	I have received many trees from Arbor Day and the color coded paint has always been there. Once I have sorted them out acording to the color I also tag them with a permanent tag. The sets that I have received always include a flowering crab and a flowering pear. This photo is a leaf from a golden rain tree. View Larger
Rocco Tulsa, OK (Zone 7a) July 16, 2007 8:18 PM	Washington Hawthorn leaf. This tree has many thorns,even at an early age. View Larger
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 16, 2007 8:25 PM	Last year they did have paint on them, although there were I think two that I couldn't tell what they were. So, I just thought that since I had the leaf id thing I'd be able to easily identify them this year. So much for that. As you can tell I'm new at this...lol...and yes, I was so confused I posted twice...I almost went back and made a remark like that, but you beat me to it! Of course, the dogwoods were the ones I really wanted. I'll have to check out sumac to see what it looks like. I had tried looking in the plant files to compare trees, but they just didn't look like anything I thought I had. I think I must be tree identification-impaired...lol See, now that leaf of the goldenraintree looks just like the illustration they sent me. Is it more, or do the illustrations not look like the leaves? So, we're pretty sure about the crabapple, rose of sharon and the sumac.....The possible washington hawthorne's leaves don't look anything like the illustration. In the pic they look oval and teethed, and in the illustration they look lobed like a maple leaf or something sigh Confusing myself again...hope I don't post this twice! Thank you so much for all your help, and if I post any more pics I'll number them...don't know why I didn't do that before! Kristie Thanks for all the help
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 16, 2007 8:26 PM	See, now that leaf looks like the illustration of the hawthorn. As far as I know, none of the trees have thorns.
ViburnumValley Scott County, KY (Zone 5b) July 16, 2007 8:28 PM	Good shots, Rocco. I was squinting to see thorns in any of the photos, and could find none. Nice golden rain tree, too; I've seen a zillion seedlings and young trees since my parents' tree is a prolific seeder into mulched areas (and even the lawn if you skip a mowing or two). I don't think I've ever seen one with uniformly trifoliate leaflets like illustrated above, so thus the Fragrant Sumac identification. Kristie: Gotta start somewhere! Here you are amongst a pretty supportive group, though we can dish out some sarcasm and good humor from time to time. All in good ID fun.
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 16, 2007 9:20 PM	Well, I just looked at the plantfile of fragrant sumac, and they do look a lot alike. The only difference I can see is that the plantfile pic looks like the leaves at the bas seem to not be as wide and curve up more...mine seem wider at the base. Also, the plantfile pic looks like they're glossy...my pic doesn't.
Rocco Tulsa, OK (Zone 7a) July 16, 2007 9:20 PM	I always wanted a sumac because of the seeds and the fall colors. I purchased a smooth sumac eight years ago. Last year it started producing new little sumacs all over my yard. Some of them were forty feet or more from the mother tree. This year it was worse. Last month there were forty four of them,some twelve to eighteen inches tall. I mowed them down. The next week there were fifty five of them. This week I counted one hundred and two. I mowed them down and cut down the eight year old tree. One of the roots that I had dug up,about eighteen inches long, was lying on top of the ground and had sprouted nine little sumacs. I think that they will be with me forever! the roots are radiating in all directions. I have been trying to kill trumpet vines for over twenty years, now it is sumacs. My advice is that if you have a sumac,kill it now! If you don't,in six or seven years the beast will turn your yard into a sumac jungle. This message was edited Jul 17, 2007 7:07 AM View Larger
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 16, 2007 9:26 PM	Ahhhhhh....great, just great. *sigh this is getting better and better :)
NatureLover1950 Vicksburg, MS (Zone 8a) July 17, 2007 10:55 AM	Look at it this way Kristie, better to find out now than 8 years down the road like poor Rocko! Trust me, we've all made such "mistakes." That's why, when I started landscaping our yard at our new house we built, I researched EVERYTHING (trees, shrubs, flowers, even the grass) before I ever put the shovel to the soil. It has saved me from some big time mistakes. I also think sumac is a beautiful tree and wanted to put some down by our creek. But when I read that they colonize, I knew they would not find a home in our yard! Be thankful for DG--there are so many knowledgeable folks here to help you through this process and, hopefully, some of us will spare you from making mistakes you will live to regret.
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 17, 2007 11:35 AM	You do have a point! And, yes DG has been very helpful. I'm just amazed people can just look at these pics and give their fancy names and everything. Wow....very impressive. So, does fragrant sumac colonize as bad? Kristie
Rocco Tulsa, OK (Zone 7a) July 17, 2007 2:51 PM	The rhus aromatica, fragrant sumac. is a much smaller sumac than the one that I had but it still produces suckers and 'babies 'remotely from the mother plant. [HYPERLINK@www.mobot.org]
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 17, 2007 3:32 PM	So its actually a shrub? Hmmm....well, if you kept up on pulling the suckers, do you think it could be kept under control?
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 17, 2007 3:35 PM	So, I'm pretty sure about all of them except the last....I'm really not seeing how it is remotely close to washington hawthorn unless the leaves shape changes as they get bigger. What does everyone else think? Can we definately say its a hawthorn?
ecrane3 Dublin, CA (Zone 9a) July 17, 2007 3:39 PM	This one is the one that looks like the hawthorn to me [HYPERLINK@davesgarden.com] And the last one [HYPERLINK@davesgarden.com] looks more like a crabapple
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 17, 2007 6:50 PM	Well, I looked at them again today, and ecrane, the one you think looks like a hawthorn I noticed the tops of the stems are green and soft and fuzzy...the leaves are even a little fuzzy. The one you think looks like a crabapple has leaves that kind of curl inward...the first one doesn't. Also, the stems on the last one are more of reddish brown....I don't know if this helps anyone...... Kristie
ViburnumValley Scott County, KY (Zone 5b) July 18, 2007 7:24 AM	Hawthorn (Crataegus spp.) and crabapple (Malus spp.) are very closely related species -- they are both members of the family Rosaceae. Easier to tell apart when more mature (especially when flowering, in fruit, when thorns show up, or when some pest strikes), these are sometimes hard to tell apart in their youth. Add to that the fact that you may have gotten some mixed up plants to start with (!) and you may be fighting an unnecessary ID battle. Let the plants grow out some more, and continue to document their progress. Note differences in the buds that will be set at the base of each leaf, and photo them as they become obvious. Watch for the development of thorns on new growth. See if new leaves show any preference for being lobed or unlobed. One difficulty with comparing leaf shapes is that young fresh vigorous foliage on new stem growth often has a different morphology than the first leaves to break dormancy in the spring. Isn't that fun? Sargent crabapple foliage is often somewhat lobed, which may make it confusing to separate from Washington hawthorn. Your set of photos so far has been pretty good. If you still have the fire and determination to pursue this, collect and photo leaves (top and bottom, laying them on a neutral background like sheet of cardboard, bedsheet, or even a concrete surface) with as closeup as you can zoom and showing the whole leaf. Same with twigs, showing the whole stem and then zoom in on the buds. Make sure you get shots of the very tips of the new stems at the end of the season, too. Then, when you come back to this forum (or others here at DG) or when reading text with ID jargon sprinkled in it (like pubescent, glabrous, serrate, or entire), you'll have good images to look back at to see what the heck all this means. Use the excellent resources already here to help you (these bold terms can be easily referenced in the Glossary). Don't despair if these aren't instantly positively ID'd. Cruise by the Plant ID forum at your leisure and see some of the banter there amongst "crusty" veteran plantspeople, and you'll see that it isn't always cut-and-dry. Lastly, enjoy. Know that it is always an education, never a set piece. Recognize that people and vendors can make mistakes. Learn from that -- go forth and be fruitful. You have the right plants for that.
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 23, 2008 4:18 PM	Well, here's an update. I'm pretty sure of the crabapple and the rose of sharon. One of the trees died over the winter, which only leaves me with one that I'm unsure of the id. The last two pictures I had posted are of my mystery tree. They have grown quite a bit, I'd estimate they're 7-8 foot tall now. They have grown much more rapidly than the crabapples. I have noticed that the crabapples are being devoured by japanese beetles. This mystery tree doesn't seem to be affected by them and looks really healthy. I still can't post new pics of this tree, but I was posting because I've noticed the bark on the mystery tree is very smooth, shiny, and has little dots or speckles on it. It is very pretty. The crabapple seems to grow clumps of leaves off the main stems. The mystery tree has main stems that then have other branches shooting off with leaves on them. I've noticed that these branches have new growth on the end. I have no idea if this might help further id the tree, but I thought I'd give it a try! Kristie
duck_toller Middleton, WI (Zone 4b) July 25, 2008 4:23 AM	You did better than I. I planted my arbor day trees in my vegetable bed figuring I could baby and protectthem there. Then after they were big enough to go out with the "big kids" I'd move them. All of them died. Some the first summer, some that winter, but by my second summer (now) they are all dead.
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 25, 2008 7:56 AM	Well, they may still die. They're still planted in a "garden" until they get "big". Except, they're probably too big now. This fall we're gonna try to move them, hopefully it works. I have no idea how big the root systems are gonna be on these things. So, I might be in the same boat as you next year.......
missingrosie Hillsborough, NC July 25, 2008 9:13 AM	You may want to consider root pruning the tree and leaving it in place for a while until you move it in the fall.
Rocco Tulsa, OK (Zone 7a) July 25, 2008 9:16 AM	VV The reason my photo doesn't show any thorns on the washington hawthorn is that a low hanging branch was photographed. The tree is approximately thirty feet tall and loaded with thorns. I have two of the trees and they have never produced flowers.
kls_01 Champaign, IL (Zone 5b) July 26, 2008 1:59 PM	how do I root prune?
missingrosie Hillsborough, NC July 26, 2008 4:51 PM	It is a process that makes it less stressful for a tree or shrub to be moved. In the best scenario, root pruning would be done about a year before the move but I do not think that doing it just a few months before the move would be a totally wasted effort. When you dig up a tree or shrub that has been in the ground for a while, you disturb and lose roots - especially the little feeder roots that help with nutrient uptake etc. So it is a shock to the tree not only to be moved into a new spot/environment but also to lose these important roots that extend pretty far out from the tree. By slicing through the soil and the roots --with a sharp shovel --all the way around the tree / shrub at the drip line --and not lifting the tree or moving it .. it allows the tree to get used to the root loss and to better tolerate the eventual move. Even with only a few months left before the move (in your case since you plan to move in the fall) -the tree will have a chance to develop new little feeder roots (closer to the trunk) that will be moved along with the tree when you are finally ready for that 'big move.' Hope this makes sense.
amisheliot Lima, OH August 10, 2008 3:37 PM	Thanks everyone, especially Kristie for starting this thread. I received a bunch of trees from Arbor Day a few years ago that were supposed to be Crepe Myrtles. Three of the CM's made it, but there were two others that were not CM's. I have been trying to figure out what they were for about two years now, and have ID'd them as the fragrent Sumac now. One of the Sumac's had a Red Bud growing out of the base of it as well. So thanks for the id everyone. I didn't catch if the Fragrant Sumac is as invasive as some of the others. Does anybody know?

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